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  • In real life, people are not good or evil for no reason at all. There is usually something that makes a person who he or she is. I should say right now, the purpose of this discussion is not to look for excuses; while we all are a product of where we come from, in the end we still have free will and the choice to be good or evil.

    All opinions are welcome, so long as they are thoughtful and explained.

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    • he beat four with a metal belt "for is own good" is that a good thing?

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    • I know he is a bad person. I am just asking what made him that way. Even the most evil person in the world was born with a clean slate. Something in upbringing or environment made Marcus grow up to be what he was.

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    • i think his partents did that to him in candor to make in tell the truth. just a guess

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    • I actually thought about this a few times - it's probably because his parents treated him similar,abused him and his view point for what's good and what's bad became twisted (if he wasn't born twisted?But that doesn't happen in real life..much) i mean in the third book when Johanna confronts him about abusing Tobias (from Tobias' POV , Tobias says Marcus looks confused, which means there is something so much wrong with his head that he doesn't get what's wrong with abusing your own son , at least that's how i see it)

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    • I agree.

      It is probable that Marcus was himself a victim of childhood abuse, and that he is continuing the cycle of violence.

      If Marcus was (for example) molested by his father, than he would have lots of problems to deal with. He would not deal with these problems in a healthy way, and would instead just bottle them up. This would cause him to resent everything and everyone, and would manifest in violent outbursts against his family.

      On the other hand, he might simply think the abuse he suffered was normal. This could be why he does not see what is wrong with him beating his wife and son.

      Personally, when I was reading the ending I hoped Tobias would make Marcus drink the memory serum (thus cleaning his slate).

      Or at the very least, it would have been beneficial to everyone if Marcus ended up behind bars (Marcus included). The mental screenings would force him to come to terms with his problems.

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    • Marcus is more than just a bad parent he is also a BAD PERSON.

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    • I agree that he is a bad person, I was only asking why he was a bad person.

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    • well lets start with the fact that HE ABUSED HIS SON AND BEAT HIM WITH A METAL BELT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    • Well he is from Erudite, and we can all agree that Erudite is mean. 

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    • Marcus was ABNEGATION BORN!

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    • No, Marcus was from ERUDITE! Everything about him points to Erudite

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    • Tobias hates Marcus because Marcus beats him. Good thing he's not Asian.

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    • look at the Marcus page it will even say he is abnegation born.

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    • because he does not care nor know that he hurts them

      And because of that him and David are the least liked characters in the series

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    • well this could have to do with childhood trauma or he just hates Divergent's and abused Tobias because he was Divergent.

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    • Marcus is also a divergent. Read the second book

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    • I think that maybe it had something to do with his upbringing, you know? Like father like son, my parents say. That jean, if it exists, totally stopped at Four though. 

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    • GENE IT IS SPELLED G-E-N-E and I meant that because Tobias wasn't divergent and Marcus looked down upon him for it.

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    • Maybe Marcus was treated baadly when he was a child.

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    • I expect he was (as a result of his being Divergent)

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    • Abnegation Candor Erudite wrote:
      No, Marcus was from ERUDITE! Everything about him points to Erudite

      He was Abnegation

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    • thank you SOMEBDOY who payed attention reading the third book.

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    • Next to his name on Tobias's family tree in Allegiant it says AA with a dot meaning he was born Abnegation and stayed in Abnegation the dot means he is Divergent.

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    • I just want to know why after watching how the other factions act why they would want to stay abnegation.

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    • Polarbear9595 wrote:
      he beat four with a metal belt "for is own good" is that a good thing?

      It wasn't a metal belt, it was a normal belt, like one you use to hold up your pants.

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    • I don't see Marcus as evil. I mean, I know he beat four, but that to me doesn't come across as evil. It comes across as being an abusive father. And maybe it was for his own good or something, or maybe he felt the same way because of whatever happened to him when he was a kid. Maybe he just wanted to relieve his anger out on four, but it was definitely not the right way to do it.

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    • D Munks wrote:
      Abnegation Candor Erudite wrote:
      No, Marcus was from ERUDITE! Everything about him points to Erudite
      He was Abnegation

      in allegiant, tobias sees the family tree and it says marcus is aa which means abnegation born duh!

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    • Polarbear9595 wrote:
      i think his partents did that to him in candor to make in tell the truth. just a guess

      um hello? he was abnegation born and he is just evil if uve read the four series you will see that he just doesnt want tobias 2 spoil his "reputation" as leader of abnegation

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    • This is a reply to comment #9 that says that all of the Erudite are mean. I disagree with you because at the end of insurgent and through all of Allegiant many people from Erudite help Tris(Cara, Fernando, Elia). Like Dauntless, the leaders became corrupt and warped the ideals. It can be like comparing Eric to Tris. While Tris is Dauntless, she is a different kind of Dauntless to him. He is cruel and sadistic, while she believes in "ordinary acts of bravery and the courage it takes for one person to stand up for another.

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    • u know what to all of u i just think that Marcus should just go and jump in a hole and die................................................


      that is what i feel about Marcus

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    • I think that Marcus is very mistreated as a character. Yes, at one point he hit his wife and child over several years too, however he was a very useful figure during the end of insurgent regardless. However, after reading four:a divergent collection it is hard to find sympathy for him, due to the way he is painted as a monster during four's fear landscape. Years later though,(two to be exact), four returns the favour and beats him(if I remember correctly), so I think this as his revenge enacted. Marcus was humiliated, and I thought that it should have been the end of Marcus, yet he came back as an anti hero. He was not really designed to be liked.

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    • y is he not dead yet

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    • he should be dead. I just noticed me and willia98 just quoted a Katniss Everdeen line. Anyway I have a theory that Marcus was abused as a child. Most parents who were abused by their own parents abuse their own children either because that is the only form of parenting they know of or simply because they want somebody else to feel the years of the pain and suffering they faced it probably has the same concept as bullying.

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    • omg yeah hey!!!!!!!!!!! And did u realise at the end of Allegiant Tobias was violent with Christina when he decided to take the memory serum and he slammed her (Christina) in the wall

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    • I hate Marcus, but in all fareness in Insurgent he helped get the information from the computers at the Eruidite headquarters.However I understand it has nothing to to do with the fact he BEAT HIS OWN SON!!! It is a good thing he did and should be accounted towards his reputation but nothing can make up for Tobias's tramatic childhood. 

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    • nothing can I just hope Tobias never beats his own children so they know how it feels because I bet he knows other styles of parenting I am pretty sure many of you read my theory on abuse two messages up.

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    • Tobias will never do that.......

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    • i have a thought

      abnegation is all about suppressing your own human nature and desires

      it can be very stressful, especially when you're one of the government officials

      so his abnegation values became twisted and he began to confuse domestic abuse to be a good thing

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    • Timjames98 wrote:
      I know he is a bad person. I am just asking what made him that way. Even the most evil person in the world was born with a clean slate. Something in upbringing or environment made Marcus grow up to be what he was.

      i have a thought

      abnegation is all about suppressing your own human nature and desires

      it can be very stressful, especially when you're one of the government officials

      so his abnegation values became twisted and he began to confuse domestic abuse to be a good thing

      someone has to start that vicious cycle, and it is possible that it was marcus who started it rather than his parents

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    • agreed

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    • Willia98 wrote: omg yeah hey!!!!!!!!!!! And did u realise at the end of Allegiant Tobias was violent with Christina when he decided to take the memory serum and he slammed her (Christina) in the wall

      although i did see that in allegiant i also saw how he reacted after he realsised that he had done that. he had almost imediently droped her and backed away. afraid of himself and of what he had done.

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    • i know that as well

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    • well that can happen with an abused child when they get violent many of them fear becoming like their parents although many of them probably do I think that becoming like his father should've been in Tobias' fear landscape.

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    • that is point..

      thank u

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    • you're welcome.

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    • But then the cycle of violence came back to him when Tobias beat him up, in public.

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    • )
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    • And Tobias learned that from him he even said that so I hope he doesn't beat his own kids up because he knows how. And Evelyn did leave Tobias with Marcus and Tobias did not like that.

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    • wait a sec when Four met Evelyn what did he say to her?

      was it like why did he leave her?

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    • It wasn't a happy reunion the first time but I don't remember in insurgent.

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    • I will just say that Marcus deserved worse than a public beating.

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    • i knew it was not a happy reunion but didn't he say that he was not happy with her!

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    • Apparently Roth tried to kill him 4 times in insurgent, but he just wouldn't die.

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    • wait is this Marcus

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    • she should've tried even harder.

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    • Yeah Marcus must be immune to death XD

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    • so like Tris you think he can fight and be immune to the death serum? I also sometimes wonder the result on his aptitude test. we know he had Erudite as one of his results as he is very intelligent with how he taught himself how to hotwire a car. I don't think he received abnegation. he could've received dauntless as a result. he is a cruel little piece of sh*t so he obviously didn't receive Amity. He is also a compulsive liar on how he denied abusing Tobias so he probably got the results Erudite and Dauntless although he may have also received Abnegation as he somehow became the leader.

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    • IDK but he was Abnegation born and he chose Abnegation at his Aptitude Test. But I hate him!

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    • don't you mean he chose Abnegation at the choosing ceremony and EVERYBODY hates him.

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    • yes and everyone does hate him

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    • i can't believe that Johanna Reyes liked him but she is an Amity and somehow Marcus hid how he treated Tobias considerably well.

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    • well in the end Johanna did say that Marcus does not get to make the decisions she gets to make those decisions

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    • Johanna chose amity but I think she was originally from candor I remember. I think Marcus and David are tied for the worst evilness characters in the series.

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    • SHE WAS BORN IN CANDOR!!!!!!!!!! she said so when she spoke to Marcus when they were at the amity compound look at the Johanna page.

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    • Ok I remembered correctly, but I still think Marcus and David are the most evil characters in the book.

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    • who does not think that Marcus and David are the most evil people?

      Everyone thinks they r evil!

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    • well good they should think that and actually David WAS evil he was affected by the memory serum and has no memory of his evil acts and is now a different man. I still hate him with a burning passion.

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    • Well maybe evil is in David's nature...

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    • well hopefully now David will not be evil and kill someone else!

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    • he will probably regain his evil. like Peter did.

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    • I really think he must have had the same upringing as Tobias. 

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    • maybe even worse.

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    • it was marcus' way of protecting tobias, he didnt want jeneane to figure out that tobias was divergent. marcus could also have been abused as a child and sees this as a acceptableway to punish tobias. what marcuus did was wrong, but in marcus' mind he sees no wrong in abusing tobias to help save his life

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    • Even the most evil person was born with a clean slate.

      Here is a real life example; Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin have something in common (in addition to genocide and WWII). All three of these monsters grew up being beaten by abusive fathers.

      We don't know how Tobias would turn out (he never had kids), but in any case he would not be worse for wear if he visited a therapist.

      I am not making excuses for anyone (not all victims become abusers). I am just explaining that in real life monsters are made, not born.

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    • Um, David and Marcus aren't evil. Or not at all... They weren't born evil, they became bad. Idk why. I have some theories:

      1st Marcus is divergent, but he was in Abnegation. That may stressed him.

      2nd Marcus' parents may be not good (or cruel).

      3rd Maybe Marcus has split personality.

      4th Marcus is good, but he wants only good for his son and he really want to be brave, strong (u know).

      5th Marcus was thinking that Tobias is selfish and he wants to show him that there's so many ppl like him (who need help; i mean Tobias).

      6th Marcus can't show in publish how stressed he is (i mean in his work) and he beats his son&wife just bec... idk...

      David:

      1st He loved (and he still love) Tris's mother, but she had a family.

      2nd If Natalie was alive, she will still love Andrew.

      3rd He isn't divergent like the others and he needs help (no one says that he's normal, just they say that he wanna fix those who's not "normal" ppl).

      4rd Um, he loved Tris's mother and maybe he loves Tris too (like daughter), he wants the best for her but he killed her, bec he's not her real father and he will never be.

      5th He was scared of the war and he wanna destroy the war.

      Some of theese theories aren't about why are they evil (they aren't), but wutever

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    • Abnegation Candor Erudite wrote:
      Well he is from Erudite, and we can all agree that Erudite is mean. 

      No. I do not agree. 





      Erudite is like Dauntless, the leader got corrupted and basically inserted everyone with the serum. Erudite also is supposed to be smart and curious, which I don't find suspicious. (Dauntless is the.one that has "cruel" in the flaws.) Jeanine is a bad person, and personality doesn't really come from birth faction(that's the test. He might have been Erudite but born in Abnegation.)  Plus Caleb was erudite but he was still a nice guy. ~ Snowfrost

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    • Why are some people mean to others for no apparent reason is the real question.

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    • I personly think that Marcus is mean because he beats his own child for heaven sake. HE hurt his own son so much, that Tobias chose the one faction that would hurt his father the most. What a lot of people forget is that he also beat his wife. Most people just focous on Tobias, bit don't forget that he beat Evelyn to the point where she faked her death and went to factionless. I think theses are the reason Marcus is evil

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    • Hina18 wrote:
      I actually thought about this a few times - it's probably because his parents treated him similar,abused him and his view point for what's good and what's bad became twisted (if he wasn't born twisted?But that doesn't happen in real life..much) i mean in the third book when Johanna confronts him about abusing Tobias (from Tobias' POV , Tobias says Marcus looks confused, which means there is something so much wrong with his head that he doesn't get what's wrong with abusing your own son , at least that's how i see it)

      I agree with this, but I still think its wrong for Marcus to abuse Tobias.

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    • He was super abusive he seemed like a person who was blamed for everything I almost felt sorry for him until I realized how he treated Evelyn and Four(Tobias) I decided otherwise I mean who can treat everyone else normally but his family like dirt I feel bad for Evelyn,Four,and Marcus they've all had a cruddy life.

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    • (Why lucky he isn't Asian? Oh wait I'm Asian with foreign blood and raised Asian I see what you mean. Ouch, lucky Tobias.)


      I personally think Marcus felt bad about his own life and decided to hurt others to feel better like bullying shits in school.

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    • Since everyone is arguing about what faction Marcus and so are in, here:

      Marcus - Abnegation born, Abnegation

      Evelyn - Erudite born, Abnegation, Factionless

      Tobias - Abnegation born, Dauntless

      Johanna - Candor born, Amity

      Maybe Marcus thought Tobias wouldn't listen to him without violence.

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    • Marcus is not so evil he grew up in a world that was broken and tried to blend in, plus if he never did that the books would be diffrent and tobias wouldn't be so tough after all. So no he isn't that evil.

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    • Did anyone ever consider that Marcus beat his son knowing he would be a divergent so that he would have a fear built in for his dauntless training? Less chance of getting discovered? Just a thought.

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    • 75.43.16.89 wrote:
      Did anyone ever consider that Marcus beat his son knowing he would be a divergent so that he would have a fear built in for his dauntless training? Less chance of getting discovered? Just a thought.

      not true.Marcus beat his son to damage him so thatr he would never truly become divergent.Tobias has the appearance of a divergent without actually being one.He wants to be more than one thing but he isnt.Father beats tobias to make his son genetically damaged so he doesnt become the divergent he is suppossed to be.Tobias can resist serums, want to have all traits of all factions but not.

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    • Avatar thoyrn wrote:
      well this could have to do with childhood trauma or he just hates Divergent's and abused Tobias because he was Divergent.

      How  could marcus hate divergents if he is a divergent?

      he doesnt want his son to be divergent,so hits him to make him genetically damaged.

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